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Question: - What is the rapture?

 

Answer: - An event not foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament. Revealed to the Apostle Paul by the risen Lord as the completion of the Body of Christ before the Day of Judgment in 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 18. Not judgment day, that is detailed in Revelation 20:11. The Day of Judgment foretold by the prophets and detailed in the Book of Revelation is regards this world, the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, God’s anger over a Christ rejecting world and the mistreatment of his covenant people the Nation of Israel.

 

Question: - What is the Gospel and what is the Gospel for us now?

 

Answer: - The word gospel means good tidings, glad tidings, or simply Good News. 

The confusion has come because of tradition that there is only one Gospel or one good news. Here is a simple example that there are distinct differences. In Lk.4:16 the Lord Jesus, reading from the Prophet Isaiah “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.”  That this is a detailed description of the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven should be obvious, for the preaching of the cross and the Gospel of the Grace of God did not come into effect until after Israel’s refusal to accept their Messiah. The gospel for us at this present time is the Gospel of the Grace of God revealed to the Apostle Paul. The blessings and promises of that gospel you will only find in Paul’s Epistles and nowhere else.

 

For and Against, but the truth cannot be ignored.

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Question: - Is there life on Mars?

 

Answer: - There is no life on Mars.  In the beginning God created life on earth, and “by one man Sin entered into the world, and death by sin.” (Romans 5:12) There is no sin on Mars and therefore there is no extinct life either. No biological material and no microbiological material. Water or material in itself do not create or evolve into life that can replicate ever.  That is a scientific fact. Rocks do not replicate themselves, and water does not multiply itself no matter how long you wait. That is true science. 1 Sept.2008

Let God be true and every man a liar - Romans 3:4.

 

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 Comments for correction are made by Frank in purple.

 

Adam wrote on September 13, 2008 at 6:53pm

I pray that everyone in this Fan Club realizes and understands the gospel that Paul preached. The fact that it was different than what Peter, James and John were preaching.

Pastor Adam

 

Eric wrote on September 29, 2008 at 4:53pm

how so?

Jacob wrote on October 6, 2008 at 6:29pm

Paul mainly taught on the guidelines for being a proper Christian. He taught about the differences between a pre-born person, and a re-born person, such as what to refrain from, and what to start doing.

Chris wrote on November 16, 2008 at 9:26pm

I think what Adam is getting at is that the ascended Christ revealed a UNIQUE message directly to Paul, that sinners could be saved by grace entirely on the merits of their faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for their 100% justification.

The 12 apostles were under the law and, in addition to their acceptance of Christ, the works of the law were REQUIRED of them for their salvation.
Paul preached the "gospel of grace"
The 12 preached the "gospel of the Kingdom"
I challenge you to prove me wrong.
See www.bereanbiblesociety.org for more information

Billy wrote on November 17, 2008 at 6:34pm

also vist www.understandingyourbible.com

Stuart wrote on November 26, 2008 at 11:44pm

Chris Griggs, no. Peter and John taught the same gospel. I'm going to have to disagree with you. I will show you why I think so.

2 Peter 1:1 - "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours". This teaches that, according to Peter, righteousness and faith are a gift from God (as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2).

1 Peter 1:9-10 - "for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,". Connection between grace and salvation, which comes from faith.

1 Peter 3:10 - "Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.". Again, grace is given to us from God. Not by what we do.

James 2:14 - "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?". James seems to be acknowledging that faith is what saves. His point is that when faith is not with actions, it is not real faith.

1 John 1 - "the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin". Atonement, right there. As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

To Adam, I'd suggest you go back and read your Bible. Peter gives us another warning at the end of his letter.

"I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it."

I'd also like to know what kind of a church you are 'pastoring'. It doesn't seem like a church of God if you're teaching people that Pauline doctrine isn't what the others were teaching.

 

My comment for correction:

1 Peter 1:9 speaks of the salvation “the prophets had spoken of,” Paul teaches of a Salvation which the Prophets did not know anything about because God had kept it secret until He revealed it to Paul (Romans 16:25).

Peter is writing by inspiration and is addressing his brethren according to his nationality in the diaspora which he clearly states in verse one of 1Peter. The Body of Christ of this dispensation has no diaspora. Peter tells them that they are going to be a nation of priests according to Old Testament Promise. Exodus 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests”  Isa 61:6  “But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles.”   In Peter’s epistle the key is, as in the Book of Isaiah, is found in the first verse of the book, it is “concerning Judah and Jerusalem.”

Notice the keys or the address in the first or second verse of First and Second Corinthians it is “unto the church of God in Corinth.” Verse two of Galatians “unto the churches in Galatia.” Ephesians 1:1 “to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:  Philippians 1:1 “to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi.”  Colossians 1:1 “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colossae.” 1st and 2nd Thessalonians 1:1 “unto the church of the Thessalonians.”

 

1 Peter 1:9-10 goes on to tell you that the prophets revealed “the suffering of Christ and the Glory that should follow.” The interval between the suffering of Christ and the Glory that should follow is this present dispensation of grace.

Again you quote 1 Peter 3:10 which clearly says “that grace to be given to you when Jesus Christ is revealed.” The believer in this age is not waiting for grace to be given to him but has already received the grace of God and is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. When Jesus Christ is revealed the body of Christ has already departed this earth, for the Revelation of Christ is not the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. We must not confuse the dispensation of Grace with grace in any dispensation. The word grace appears 24 times in the book of Romans, 12 times in the Epistle to the Ephesians, not once in the book of Matthew, only twice in the book of Revelation for the Dispensation of Grace is past.

Again the first verse in the Epistle of James tells you that he is writing to the twelve tribes. May I remind you that The Body of Christ does not consist of twelve tribes!   In James 2:2 the word assembly is mistranslated, the word is Synagogue and the elders of James 5:14 are equally of the Synagogue. He is not addressing Christians in the Body of Christ and therefore the confusion of verse 15 and 16, and the entire epistle, which will be quite normal in the Kingdom age to come, but has little relevance for this dispensation.

 

 

 

Andrea wrote on December 14, 2008 at 1:58pm

Peter also says this:
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Does your church teach baptism saves? Well that's what Peter is preaching here.
In Acts 2 Peter doesn't preach Jesus died for your sins. He told the nation of Israel that they killed the Messiah. He preached a murder indictment against Israel. He didn't preach the cross as good news! When Peter and John and the others were preaching, what gospel were they preaching? It can't be that Jesus died for their sins, was buried and is going to rise again in three days like our gospel today is. If that was the case, wouldn't they be waiting at the tomb on the third day? It plainly says in John 20:9
For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
John said this:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Paul said this:
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the un-circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Things that are different CAN'T be the same. You are either cleansed by the blood or by confessing your sins. It can't be both.
Grace believers don't need a "church of God" to know what the Bible says. All you have to do is read the Bible, not books about the Bible. If you compare scripture with scripture, you will see that Paul was given information the 11 NEVER was.

Shawn wrote on December 14, 2008 at 11:33pm

Let's bring some more Scripture in to prove the point that Peter and Paul did NOT preach the same Gospel. Everything that Peter and the Ten Apostles of ISRAEL preached, they learned from Jesus while Jesus was in His flesh, in His earthly ministry (Matthew 10:5-7). However, upon Saul of Tarsus's conversion on the Road to Damascus, Jesus has ALREADY ascended to Heaven years before. Jesus was no longer on Earth in His flesh at the time of Paul's Damascus Road experience.
Thus concluded, when Paul says that he received the Grace doctrines/Gospel of Grace from the "revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11-12), Paul did not mean He learned it from Jesus in His earthly ministry (remember, Jesus ascended to Heaven long before Paul was saved). Paul did NOT learn the Grace doctrines from Peter and the Ten; Paul was taught by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ Himself (Galatians 1:12, 16).
To bring this to a head, and to confirm that Peter and Paul preached two separate Gospels, we find the following words from Peter (toward the end of his life): (emphasis added in CAPS)
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16).
For those who want to throw away Paul and the doctrines of Grace, they'd have to throw away Peter too, because Peter calls Paul's writings "Scripture.' Furthermore, we find that Peter did NOT understand everything Paul taught and wrote. If Peter and Paul preached the same thing, Peter would have no trouble understanding Paul's teaching... however, Scripture says the OPPOSITE. Peter could NOT understand Paul's preaching... why? Peter was steeped in legalism, Judaism, etc, an apostle of Israel. Paul on the other hand was the Gentile apostle (Romans 11:13), and Paul alone needed to know those Grace doctrines/Gospel of Grace/Mystery.
Confusion abounds when you mix Israel with Body of Christ. Learn to "rightly divide" the Bible, separating Law from Grace, Prophecy from Mystery, just as the Apostle Paul instructed his son in the faith Timothy (2 Timothy 2:15).

Shawn wrote on January 15, 2009 at 8:31pm

Stuart, I would like you to read two verses. Let the Scriptures speak, and it will all make sense.
Romans 16:25-26 (KJV): "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 16:25, why did Paul write "MY GOSPEL?" Because the Gospel of the Grace of God was committed to PAUL'S trust, exactly what Scripture says (1 Timothy 1:11). According to those two verses above, everything Paul was preached was KEPT SECRET since the world began. If Peter was preaching the Gospel of Grace before Paul came on the scene as you are claiming Stuart, then Scripture is lying. You are saying that Peter DID preach death, burial, and resurrection in Acts 2... that's years before Paul. According to Scripture, that Gospel of Grace was not revealed until AFTER Paul. You'd have to throw those Scriptures away to say Peter and Paul preached the same thing.
Consider the following (again, did Peter and Paul preach the same message?):
------------------------------------------
- Paul is the only one who uses the term "body of Christ." Peter, John, Jesus in His earthly ministry, and all the other Israeli apostles do NOT use the term "body of Christ." Grab any concordance of the Bible, and you will not find a single reference to "the body of Christ" in any other portion beside Romans through Philemon--Paul's books.
------------------------------------------
- Paul claims that he ALONE received the revelations of the grace age doctrines (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:1-9). In 1 Timothy 1:11 Paul wrote "it [the Gospel of the Grace of God] was committed to HIS TRUST." Peter, James, and John are NOT mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:11. This Gospel of the Blessed God could not be the same Gospel that Peter and the eleven preached; otherwise Paul would have said "COMMITTED TO OUR TRUST," indicating the apostles too. Paul wrote that this Gospel of the Blessed God was committed to HIS TRUST.
------------------------------------------
- We find startling evidence in Galatians 2:7-8 (KJV):
"7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)."
Did you catch it? There are TWO GOSPELS in that verse alone! A Gospel of the Circumcision (Jews' Gospel of the Kingdom), and a Gospel of the Uncircumcision (Gentiles' and our Gospel of God's Grace). Furthermore, you do not find "Gospel of the Kingdom" in Paul's books, and you do not find "Gospel of God's Grace" anywhere else but Paul's books (Acts 20:24 is referring to Paul).
------------------------------------------
- Paul urges us to FOLLOW HIM, as HE FOLLOWS CHRIST. Paul is THE APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES (Romans 11:13). See 1 Corinthians 11:1, 1 Corinthians 4:16, Ephesians 5:1, Philippians 3:17, and 1 Thessalonians 1:6. There is no reference to following Peter, James, or John.
------------------------------------------
-Who laid the foundation of the Christian faith? PAUL! Christ is the Foundation, but Paul is the wise master builder who laid the foundation Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:10-11).
------------------------------------------
-One more confirmation from Scripture. Find 1 Timothy 1:15-16 (KJV):
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am CHIEF. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in ME FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
A PATTERN is the first... Paul is our pattern. He was the first to get placed into the Body of Christ (Grace Age believers). CHIEF implies he is the first, the main, the head of the line (see "CHIEF" in Acts 14:12, Luke 22:26, Acts 28:7... "CHIEF" means FIRST/MAIN.


Anyone who does not see the clear distinction between Paul and Peter is simply UNWILLING to see the difference. The verses are plain, and no ThD is necessary. You can choose disagree, but if you disagree with what I have just posted, you'd be denying the plethora of supporting Scripture.

 

 

Andrea wrote on January 18, 2009 at 7:07am

Paul is the only one that received the gospel of the grace of God. Peter was with Jesus three years. At Pentecost, was Peter preaching Christ died for your sins, was buried and arose again the third day? No he preached you killed the Messiah. He was preaching repentance and baptism. He preached to Israel to repent (change their mind) because before Christ' crucifixion, they said we will not have this man rule over us. They needed to change their mind about who He was not what He had done on the cross. They also needed to be baptized. And that was NOT to be an outward sign of salvation like most denominations falsely teach. It was to identify them as believers in WHO HE WAS. If you really read the four gospels carefully, Jesus is not teaching about the cross, He was coming to His people, Israel to show them WHO HE WAS, that he was their Messiah that was to bring in the kingdom. This is the gospel that was preached by Jesus and the eleven. It had nothing to do with grace. They had no idea of Jesus dying and rising again. It was hid from them by Jesus himself. There are two completely different programs going on in scripture. In 1 John he says we don't need a teacher, and Paul says to study. In Peter's writing it says baptism does save and Paul says Christ sent me not to baptize and he says there is only ONE baptism. Peter says repent and be converted that your sins MAY BE blotted out WHEN the Lord comes. You can't say they are the same, if you do you have to add to God's word or explain it away. There is a difference. It is all true but not true for all people at all times. If you live in the US, do you follow the laws of Russia? It's not where you live today so you live and follow the laws of the US. You can live like a Russian but it's not for you. You can follow Israel's program but that's not who you are.

April wrote on January 20, 2009 at 5:47am

Paul was called by God just as WE ALL ARE. I see too many idolize Paul and follow him when we should be following Jesus! Only Jesus' words are life. The way, the truth, and the life. No other name is above his. Nope not even Paul's.

My comment for correction:

Paul said in Romans 11:13 “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:  He magnified his commission not himself, and notice, he is the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Andrea wrote on January 21, 2009 at 4:55pm

Jesus wrote the whole Bible. All of the Bible are His words. Moses was given the law but nobody says if you follow the law you idolize Moses. Paul was given the gospel of the grace of God from the risen Lord himself. Paul the man is not what we follow today. We follow him as a pattern as he follows Christ. We follow Jesus by following Paul and what he was given by Jesus Christ. Paul is not our savior. Paul didn't die for us but he was the only one given the grace message by our Savior.

Shawn replied to April's post on January 21, 2009 at 6:38pm

April, you seemed to have misunderstood what we're saying about Paul's ministry. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: PAUL IS NOT TO BE EXALTED ABOVE JESUS CHRIST! We are not exalting Paul--we are exalting the grace age information that Christ revealed to Paul, so Paul could give it to us. I do not worship Paul, but Paul is our apostle of the Age of Grace (Ephesians 3:1-9).
These Grace Age doctrines of Paul were NOT revealed to Peter, James, John, or anyone else (Romans 16:25-26). Christ Jesus committed the Gospel of Grace to "Paul's trust" (1 Timothy 1:11-14). But the Scriptures make no mistake: Paul did not die for us (1 Corinthians 1:13).
April, let's see what the Scriptures say about following Paul! You can't argue with Scripture. KJV Scriptures quoted.
"Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me [Paul!]" (1 Corinthians 4:16).
"Brethren, be followers together of me [Paul!], and mark them who walk so as ye have us an example." (Philippians 3:17).
Is Paul promoting idolatry? NO, we are simply following Paul because Paul is following Christ! Paul is "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:13)--Paul is the apostle God sent to us (Acts 9:15-16).
"And ye [Thessalonians] became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 1:6).
"Be ye followers of God, as dear children" (Ephesians 5:1).
"BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME [PAUL], EVEN AS I AM OF CHRIST" (1 Corinthians 11:1).
To make a final note, the Gospel of Grace, "Paul's Gospel," is the Gospel by which the lost shall be judged: "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY GOSPEL." Romans 2:16 says it's Paul's Gospel... it was revealed only to Paul, to no other apostle.
If you want to disagree, you would be going against all that Scripture.

Stuart wrote on January 26, 2009 at 7:06am

True, it is the same Christ.

True, Christ is the object of that faith.

To the believer of the Kingdom Gospel Christ is the King to sit on David’s throne. To the believer of the Grace Gospel Christ is the Head of the Body.

The Kingdom Saint is saved to be a citizen of that earthly kingdom promised to Israel. Since Israel’s Fall the Gospel of the Grace of God is preached and believers are saved to a heavenly citizenship to provoke Israel to be jealous.  Romans 11:11.  Philippians 3:20,21. This is not only scripturally correct but also dispensational correct

Death of Jesus - 2:23, 2:36, 3:13, 3:15, 4:10
Resurrection of Jesus - 2:24, 31, 2:32, 4:2, 4:10
Forgiveness - 2:38, 3:19, 4:12


Peter was speaking to Jews and asking them to repent because they were party to the death of their King and told them that if they would repent (Nationally) they would have their crime forgiven and the King would return. Acts 3:20.

 

The word gospel means just good news, and when the word gospel is used it certainly is not always referring to the same good news you read about. When God preached the Gospel to Abraham he was not telling him about the good news of the “preaching of the cross” for lost sinners. Galatians 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” Abraham was told that all nations would be blessed through him, That was the good news (gospel) but the Lord did not tell him how.

Written by Shawn -
"In Romans 16:25, why did Paul write "MY GOSPEL?" Because the Gospel of the Grace of God was committed to PAUL'S trust, exactly what Scripture says (1 Timothy 1:11). According to those two verses above, everything Paul was preached was KEPT SECRET since the world began. If Peter was preaching the Gospel of Grace before Paul came on the scene as you are claiming Stuart, then Scripture is lying. You are saying that Peter DID preach death, burial, and resurrection in Acts 2... that's years before Paul. According to Scripture, that Gospel of Grace was not revealed until AFTER Paul. You'd have to throw those Scriptures away to say Peter and Paul preached the same thing."
Shawn, nowhere does Paul say that this "gospel" was revealed to him only. Romans 2:16 does not say "my gospel alone". Romans 1 also says it's the gospel of God and of Jesus. I think you're misinterpreting the words that Paul is using. Why? I'm not sure.
I think there also may be some sort of misunderstanding as to what this 'revealing' is. It isn't the writings of Paul. Paul never says that his own writings ARE the revelation, merely that they are the method of communication. No, the revelation is Jesus Christ. Notice the word 'manifest?'. What was manifest? Jesus was! If you take that verse to mean that Paul was the first person to ever preach the gospel of grace and literally interpret that verse, then wouldn't that mean that the Romans were the first to hear this good news? But I thought that a lot of churches heard Paul before the Romans did? No, the "now" being talked about is since Christ. The thing made "manifest" was Jesus - God made flesh.
"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" - Colossians 2.
Jesus is the secret. Not the 'gospel of grace'. Jesus Christ dying for sins is it.
As for Peter's sermon, I can't see how you can miss it, but I'll give you verses. If I had to summarise the three main points, it'd be these:
Death of Jesus - 2:23, 2:36, 3:13, 3:15, 4:10
Resurrection of Jesus - 2:24, 31, 2:32, 4:2, 4:10
Forgiveness - 2:38, 3:19, 4:12
"By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see."
All of this is from Peter. It seems fairly consistent with Paul's teachings, and incredibly similar to Paul's address overall to the Athenian group in Acts 17.
And to be honest, I don't see how not agreeing with the dispensationalist view is "going against all that scripture". All you've done is quote places where Paul tells people to imitate his faith. I don't see how you've justified your position. I also don't think that the dispensationalist view would logically be arrived at by a plain reading of the New Testament.
"What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided?"
What do you guys do with that verse? How do you respond to it? Because to me, it seems to flatly deny most of the things being said in this thread. Paul is saying that people saying they follow one apostle over another is stupid. Why? Because they are all teaching the same thing! They are all on the same side. Sent to different people, yes, but the theology is the same. The Jews saved by God are ones saved by grace through faith. They don't have a different salvation method. It's Messiah or nothing. It's the testimony of scripture and the apostles. It's the same faith, all the way through.

I just can't see the attempt to distance Paul and Peter (especially with no Biblical backing) as coming from God...

My comment for correction:

How can Jesus be the secret? John 3:16, 36 and John 5:24 were true before Calvary. The coming of the Messiah is the subject of prophecy and not mystery. In Luke 24:44 “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

Peter and Paul are not distanced. They had different marching orders and it is the traditional view which has blurred the distinctions. Paul does say that it was revealed to him only and he did not communicate it to the Twelve until some 15 years after his conversion, and you can read of it in Galatians 2:2-9.

Andrea wrote on January 26, 2009 at 4:00pm

We follow Paul as he follows Christ. How is Peter's message of repent and be baptized with Paul's message of believe the gospel the same? You can't possibly make those two statements say the same thing. Peter is not telling Israel in Acts 2:38 that Jesus died for their sins. He says you killed him. Where does Peter say we are saved by grace through faith? When Jesus came in His earthly ministry He NEVER told Israel they were not under the law anymore. Even in Acts 10 Peter was STILL under the law. He didn't embrace Cornelius and tell Him that Jesus died for his sins. He said it was unlawful to go into a gentile. If it's all the same gospel why is Peter STILL not going to gentiles. He knew that Jesus told them go NOT into the way of the gentiles. He has NOT been told any different. You can't honestly say Peter is preaching grace, if he is preaching the same thing, why would he not want to see ALL men saved, not just Israel.

Presently God is calling out (ecclesia – church) individual people out of the nations, whereas when the “great Commission” will be fulfilled in the future, when the Twelve Apostles will be teaching the nations, entire nations will be saved through Israel as you read in Rev. 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. The Lord’s words will come true; the twelve will judge the twelve tribes of Israel and also be responsible to run the curriculum for the education systems for the rest of the nations in the world. Satan will be locked up by then and all his deceptions are going to be exposed. The name of our blessed Lord will no longer be the byword of the drunkard or the swear-word of the profane. Israel will rejoice in God’s blessing here on earth. Zech. 8:23  Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.  The Apostles will have power to raise the dead. Mt 10:8  Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. All that goes with the preaching, the Gospel of the Kingdom, for that is certainly not happening now under the gospel of the Grace of God. “My Grace is sufficient for thee” was the Lord’s answer to Paul.

Stuart wrote on January 26, 2009 at 5:24pm

I think you're playing word games here, because Peter never said the words "grace through faith" in Acts. Neither does Paul. Peter does mention both of these things in his first epistle however, multiple times. I've got them here for you, in the context specifically of Jesus being given.
Grace - 1:10, 1:13, 5:12
Faith - 1:5, 1:7, 1:9, 1:21, 5:9
Paul gave a very similar message to the Athenians as I said before, summed up as "now he commands all people everywhere to repent". Where is the gospel of grace there to the gentiles? It's not there, all that is there is "repent". Why? Because that's part of the ONE gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'd also like to point out a flaw in your theology: you can't believe the gospel of Christ and NOT repent. You seem to imply that Paul would have been happy with someone who said they believed the gospel but didn't radically change their lives. I don't see this anywhere in his writings. Repentance and faith go hand in hand. You can't call Jesus 'Lord" and not do what He says. And in 1 John, he talks about our faith overcoming the world, and numerous times mentions that the born-again Christian cannot go on sinning because God's seed is in him. Faith and repentance are inseparable in the saving acts of God.
Peter does want to see all men saved. What is his understanding of God? In 2 Peter 3, he writes God does "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." And I find your Cornelius example to be shocking. Do you know that ONE sentence after Peter says that it is unlawful for him to go into his house, he says "but God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean"? Do you know that? Or are you reading into the Word of God something that you've been taught by men?
And where does Jesus tell the disciples to not go into the rest of the world? Please don't quote Jesus before Matthew 28 occurs, either - "Make disciples of all nations", is the phrase Jesus uses. They were told differently by Christ. The wall had been broken down (Ephesians 2:14 - "who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two")

Can the dispensationalist truly say in their heart that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus"? Can they honestly say that?

My comment for correction:

There is no play on words. Our problem is superficial reading and the influence of tradition. Peter is not writing to the Body of Christ of this dispensation as in 1Peter 1:11 he sets the order by saying: “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, -------and the glory that should follow.” He skips this age altogether, anticipating the glory of the Kingdom here on earth, and tells them to be, 2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” Paul on the other hand is telling the believers of this age to be, Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” There is difference of time and essence.

 

There is no flaw in theology for in  Genesis 6:8  Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD,” but grace in a dispensation does not make it the dispensation of Grace. A common error is the assumption that Salvation automatically means the same result every time the word is used. Presently God is saving people out of all nations by grace through faith only, to a heavenly position in Christ “to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy (Romans 11:11). Jews in time past were saved to become subjects of the Kingdom here on earth, and as the Apostles were promised in Matthew 19:28 “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” In the future, when the Body of Christ is removed from this earth, as stated in Thessalonians 4:16, the Gospel of the Kingdom will again be preached with the result of many being beheaded as you read in Revelation 20:4  “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” It is when the Antichrist is ruling this earth, and guess what religion that might be, that is even now so keen to cut people’s heads off? And 1John is exactly referring to that age of the Antichrist 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.” Here again, what violent religion denies the Father and the Son?

 

The Lord Jesus gave the Twelve specific commandments regards the Gospel of the Kingdom which are ignored by the masses of Christians and none Christians alike. Make disciples of Nations, not individuals, as in Revelation 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.” Likewise the Gospel of the Grace of God is ignored and rejected by so called Christians and Unbelievers.

 

“The Wall broken down” did not happen until Israel’s Fall, when Israel was placed on the same level as the Gentiles, who, according to Ephesians 2:12 were “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:” When God concluded them all under sin Galatians 3:22. The statements of Romans 3:19 – 30 were not available to the Twelve in Acts chapter two or ten.

 

To be “In Christ” does not automatically mean to be in “The Body of Christ” for the person who is in Christ is no longer in Adam. That is why Paul could say in  Romans 16:7  “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

Also the “New Man” is Not The New Kingdom.

 

Dispensationalism is a Biblical Fact else there be no need to “Study thyself” and “rightly divide the word of truth.” Notice, study thyself, and not let others study for you, which has resulted that Christian Seminaries and teachers influence the students by regurgitating the same errors from generation to generation.

1 Timothy 1:4 is not correctly translated. The words “godly edifying” is clearly “Economy” so That Timothy was to “charge some that they teach no other doctrine, (that is what Paul taught) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than God’s Dispensation which is in faith: so do.”Again in Ephesians 3:1-3 ¶  “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;”

 

Stuart wrote on January 26, 2009 at 7:21pm

Hey, it's me again!
I was just on a train and was reading through Acts, and came across a verse I think would be helpful to this situation.
It's Peter's address to the group that got together to discuss whether or not Gentiles needed to be under the Law. Found in Acts 15.
"Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and BELIEVE. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts BY FAITH. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! WE BELIEVE IT IS THROUGH THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS THAT WE ARE SAVED, JUST AS THEY ARE."
emphasis mine...
The word of God contradicts your view quite clearly. Peter was preaching the 'gospel of grace', and Paul was preaching the 'gospel of repentance', because they are one and the same.

Tradition instigated the change of wording. Acts chapter 15 is 15 years after Pentecost and the Apostles are still in Jerusalem (verse 2) and verse 5 is evidence that they did not know the Gospel of the Grace of God. You mean to say with the Apostles in town for 15 years the Pharisees that believed still did not know the difference?

My comment for correction:

Tradition wants us believe the so called “great commission” was in operation from Acts chapter two onwards. But that is not what the record of the book of Acts teaches.  Acts 8:1 tell us there was a great persecution of Jewish believers who were scattered throughout the region which, we are told in 11:19 “preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only”.  Why would that be if they “continued in the Apostles Doctrine”? Well, that was the Apostles doctrine. Again it tells us the disciples were scattered “except the Apostles.” The Apostles did not move from Jerusalem because Jerusalem had to be converted first for the kingdom program to continue. The Apostles knew it and understood it; there is plenty of evidence in the book of Acts alone to prove it, yet here we are nearly 2000 years later and still don’t know what really happened because we are so engrained with tradition that we are not even willing to look at the evidence. In Acts 12 Peter is in Jerusalem in prison instead of sitting with the other eleven apostles on twelve thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel, and James the first of the Apostles, the brother of John, has already been murdered by Herod. Peter was facing the same and there was no public uproar to prevent the murder of someone who did beneficial miracles among them. In fact we are told in verse two that “it pleased the Jews.” Now if all of Jerusalem had been saved by now, Herod would be off the throne, and that murder would never have happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This is the very verse that caused me to re-examine the entire traditional teaching, for the verse in the KJV Acts 15:11 says   “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” You may check with the original Greek text and you will find it correct. If Peter was preaching the same as Paul, he and his mates should not have been surprised that the Holy Spirit fell on them at all, moreover he would have said, “The grace of the Lord Jesus saved them as we were saved”. Peter preached to Jews only, that they should repent of rejecting and crucifying their King. Paul preached to the Athenians they should repent about their idol worship. That does not make it the gospel (good news) of repentance. Peter was interrupted in his sermon to Cornelius for specific reasons. Paul also got interrupted not only in Athens but also in Jerusalem Acts 22:21. Though there were thousands who believed the Apostles Doctrine (Acts 21:20) They would not let Paul tell them of what God had done since the stoning of Stephen, for The Lord had already told Paul in verse   22:18  And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.”  What testimony is this that could not have been told by the Twelve Apostles that were in Jerusalem? Notice they are still in Jerusalem and those that were scattered by the great persecution of Acts 8:1 we are specifically told in Acts 11:19 that they also preached to “none but Jews only.” 

Andrea wrote on January 26, 2009 at 7:43pm

What is the point? Is everything after Matthew 28 not Scripture?

 

1Cor 14:37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

 

Ephesians was written AD 60 some 30 years after Pentecost.

 

The Lord Jesus made salvation available to Gentiles after Israel’s rejection of the Kingdom, after rejecting the testimony of the Holy Ghost, on a never before revealed basis, and to a never before revealed position for Jews and Gentiles to be in one body Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matt 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs
Jesus was not going to heal this woman's daughter because she was not a Jew. Gentiles were dogs.
I'm saying between the cross and ACTS 10, Peter is STILL UNDER THE LAW. They are still going to pray in the temple at the hour of prayer. Nothing has changed in the four gospels than was going on in the old testament. Jesus was now coming to set up His kingdom on the earth. Israel AS A NATION was to receive their KING and the KINGDOM. They were to accept their Messiah that was prophesied by the prophets since the world began. They were to receive their Messiah then the tribulation and then they would have their King and kingdom and then they could evangelize the nations. But they would not have Him rule over them. They killed Him. After He arose from the dead (which the apostles didn't know would happen even though they were with Him three years) He gave them another chance at Pentecost (the end of the Jewish church that was told in Joel) and they rejected Him again. They had one more chance with Stephen but they killed him. Now they rejected the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Now they fell and Paul was given the gospel of the grace of God. Something that was a mystery, hidden in the mind of God. That He would go to the Gentiles apart from Israel. Peter at the end of his life still was finding it hard to understand what was going on.
2 Peter 3:15 & 16
And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
There was a time when there was a difference between Jew and gentile. There was a covenant relationship between God and the Jews that you as a gentile never had and never will. You are not a spiritual Jew. You are not one of the twelve tribes. If you are saved you are a member of the body of Christ. Two different programs

Stuart wrote on January 27, 2009 at 12:14am

Andrea, I think you're missing my point. I said not to bother quoting anything the Lord said AFTER Matthew 28, where He commands His apostles (and us) to make disciples of all nations. Jesus did send Peter into the world during the great commission.
You're missing the point of Ephesians 2. Jesus made salvation available to the gentiles through His death. That was the point of turning. Not when Paul became an apostle about three years afterwards.

 

My comment for correction:

Matthew 28:16 says: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17  And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18  And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

A specific command given to the eleven has been wrenched from them by the influence of tradition. Read the text carefully, “Go ye” is addressed to the Eleven.

 

Eric replied to Stuart's post on February 25, 2009 at 4:23pm

I read through all this, and it is very plain:
To believe that Paul had a Gospel of Jesus Christ separate to himself, people have to completely ignore all the scriptures you quoted.
Paul seemed to have revelation and understanding that was uniquely his own, but his requirements of salvation are the same that Jesus passed on to his Twelve.

Stuart replied to Eric's post on February 26, 2009 at 4:07am

1 Corinthians 15:11 really hammers home that point, too.
"Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

Eric replied to Stuart's post on February 26, 2009 at 10:30am

Acts 20:24  But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

 

1Timothy 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

 

 

I'm beginning to think there's an endless stream of supporting scriptures where that came from.
I was also beginning to think that the Paulians above were simply putting on a historical play for us to reenact the early Corinthian church.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:10-17
But where are the Apollosians and Cephasians?

Andrea wrote on March 14, 2009 at 2:30pm

Peter said repent and be baptized for remission of sin. Paul said believing in the death, burial and resurrection saves you. I don't see the same thing here. Peter says baptism saves and Paul said there is only one baptism. Jesus taught that the ten commandments gave you eternal life. Are you doing that today? Can you name all of them? Israel stumbled and fell. And now through their fall, we gentiles are now able to be saved today apart from Israel. We, the body of Christ are a separate and totally different body of believers saved by faith in the finished work of the cross Jew or gentile. We are not an offshoot of Judaism. We are a new creation!

James wrote on March 31, 2009 at 5:10am

Healing people was going to be the norms under the preaching of the Kingdom gospel see Matthew 10:1 and Mark 16:16-18 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Is that happening today under the preaching of the Gospel of the Grace of God?

 

 

There is only one gospel - Paul preached it, as did the twelve. There is no discontinuity only differences in nuance and development (as all come to realise the full significance of God's action in Christ).
Paul preached baptism.
"Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:3-6)
Peter and John preached grace.
"While the beggar held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon's Colonnade. When Peter saw this, he said to them: "Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the Author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see." (Acts 3:11-16)
Paul preached grace and Peter preached baptism and vis-versa.
Can't you even see what you are doing? You would drive an (unwarranted) wedge between the body of Christ and the words of Christ himself. Jesus taught that He was "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). He also taught that He had not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).
You are in danger of becoming antinomians, disregarding the proper function of the law as leading us into grace (and guiding us as we grow in grace). Jesus taught that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees we would surely not enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also became our righteousness - What we could not accomplish Christ accomplished for us! But does this mean that because Jesus is our righteousness we can sin so that grace may increase? Back to some words from the apostle Paul (may they correct the error of the antinomians):
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (Romans 6:1-4)
There is only covenants and these should not been seen as separate dispensations - Christ died to fulfill the law. He is the hope of the covenant made to Noah: "Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." (Genesis 9:11). From that day forward God is committed to redeeming all creation. Then we see a little more of how God will do that when He gives a promise and makes a covenant with Abram saying,
"I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)
It is all one promise. Covenants building upon one another. Paul even teaches this in Romans 4. I beg of the antinomians, re-read your Bibles and ask God to send His Holy Spirit that you might understand. You cannot sin that grace may abound. Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, (the name Christian means little-Christ and was first given to believers in the mixed Jewish and Gentile church in Antioch in Acts 11:26) are not under the law but under grace. But this does not mean Christians should overthrow the law on the contrary Christians must 'uphold the law' (Romans 3:31).
Love in Christ,
James

My comment for correction:

That there is only one gospel is absolutely false. The word Gospel means Good News or Good Tidings and to say that there is only one Good News is absurd.

The gospel of God means simply Good News from God.

The gospel of Jesus Christ means simply Good News about Jesus Christ.

The gospel of the Kingdom used four times means simply Good News about the Kingdom to be established here on earth.

The gospel of peace means exactly that, the Good News of Peace.

The gospel of the grace of God was not revealed until after Israel’s Fall.

Therefore we have that verse in  Romans 16:25  “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” which is Good News the Twelve were not able to preach until the Apostle Paul communicated it to them in Acts 21 recorded for us in Galatians 2:1 fourteen years after his conversion “And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation,” THAT GOSPEL is the MY GOSPEL, the Good News “that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” The gospel of the grace of God is not the gospel of the kingdom. Paul was going to Jerusalem in Acts 20:24 and said this: “that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.”  What need was there for him to go to Jerusalem if the Twelve were preaching this for the last 14 years?  Paul has told us in 1 Timothy 1:11  the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.” Read Ephesians 3:1-8. Notice how many times he uses ME and I and that he only received the revelation of the dispensation of grace, for it had not been revealed to anyone before. 

Garrett wrote on April 16, 2009 at 5:47pm

If you say that Peter and Paul preach different gospels, then you must acknowledge that Paul then curses Peter. He specifically says that any different gospel from the true gospel, even if it comes from angels, is wrong.
Galatians Chapter 1: 6-9
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Peter may have had more of a personal struggle accepting Gentiles than Paul, who made them his mission. But Peter and Paul both taught the same gospel, through and through. To say otherwise is blasphemy and it is staining the truth of our objective, inerrant, authoritative, and all sufficient scriptures. Sola Scriptura!

Andrea wrote on May 1, 2009 at 9:01am

Peter is not cursed. He taught what he was supposed to. He was to preach to Israel to repent of what they had done and to be baptized as a nation. The tribulation would come and they would have their kingdom that was preached by the prophets since the world began. Peter preached what was written in the book of Joel. It was made known and it was talking about the tribulation. Peter taught that even though you killed Him, He is still going to give you another chance to receive the kingdom. But it did not happen. They stoned Stephen and that was the final rejection. Then Jesus saves Paul and gives him information that was KEPT SECRET since the world began. That He would save people not on the basis of who they were (circumcision, un-circumcision) but by faith in the cross. This was ONLY made known to Paul

Garrett wrote on May 1, 2009 at 3:30pm

Jesus from the time he started his ministry taught saved by faith, to everyone. One of his first converts was a Samaritan Woman (lowest of the low to Jews in that culture), and the Centurion (a Gentile) amazed Jesus with his faith. Even the Old Testament saints were saved by faith. Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, and God said he would make of his seed many nations (not just Jews, but Gentiles, for Jesus would come from Abraham's seed and bring Gentiles into Abraham's line). Man is a wretched creature and never once did the law justify anyone. Under the old covenant the law was a symbol for the mystery of Jesus Christ, but simply following it blindly wasn't the point, it was having faith in the one true God. The Pharisees followed the law, but in their hearts they had no true faith, so hypocrites like them were doomed even before Jesus came. Jesus strove to explain to people that he wasn't interested in external things like legalism and race, but on instead he was interested in the heart. Then when he left for his home in heaven he said, go forth and make disciples of ALL NATIONS. Peter knew long before Paul that Jesus wants everyone in his kingdom and that is what Peter taught. Again I say that anyone that thinks that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught different Gospels is misinterpreting the Bible. I don't want to sound harsh, but this really threatens the authority of scripture and weakens the Gospel. Please at least meditate some more on the Gospel and pray, before hardening this heresy in your heart.
By the way John taught the same gospel as well:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

My comment for correction:

The so called Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are summarized in John 1:11 “He came to His Own (Israel) and His Own received Him Not.” John 3:16 and 3:36 were true before Calvary. The 12 Apostles did not and could not do “the preaching of the cross” before Calvary neither did they after the resurrection. Acts 10:36 “The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ:” And Peter goes on to say in verse 37 “That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;”

Andrea wrote on May 2, 2009 at 4:55pm

Jesus in His earthly ministry did not preach to the gentiles. He was a minister of the circumcision. He told his disciples to go not into the way of the gentiles. You can't get your doctrine for today from the four gospels. He addressed Israel under the law. We are today not under the law nor were we gentiles ever under the mosaic law. When that gentile woman came to Jesus to heal her daughter, Jesus ignored her. He didn't heal her until she blessed Israel. She knew her place. Israel's kingdom WAS at hand but they had to recognize who Jesus was as a nation. We today are not recognized as a nation. We are a part of the body of Christ. We will be ruling in the heavens and Peter and the others will be on the earth, sitting on thrones. We are going to be joint heirs not subjects to a King. The disciples were told to go to make disciples of ALL NATIONS. Did they do it? NO, they never left Jerusalem! And John 3:16 is what Peter was preaching. They were to recognize WHO Jesus was (believeth in Him). Not believe that He died for your sins. That is the gospel for today. Lots of people believe in Jesus and are lost. Peter is preaching to Israel to recognize that their King is there ready for them to accept the kingdom but they didn't!

Garrett wrote on May 3, 2009 at 6:20pm

I really don't know how else to explain it. Maybe we are arguing the same thing with different terminology. I will try to clarify. Jesus came to the earth to save all men. The Gospel message never changed, he came not to nullify the law, but to fulfill it. This was the same for all men whom are subjects to the law (including Gentiles). Paul himself says that we should not neglect the law for it is a school master teaching us what is righteous. He went first to the Jews because they were his people, but the plan was always to save all men. Isaiah prophesied Christ’s crucifixion hundreds of years before it happened. In God’s sovereign plan he knew/predestined that Israel would reject their king. If you are saying that hypothetically if Israel had accepted and believed in Christ that the Gentiles would not have been grafted onto the tree, than I really think you don’t understand the Bible as a whole and what it says. It seems like such a simple concept to me and it grieves my soul that it has been twisted into something that is so terrible, that God is limited in his power to how we respond to him. God is sovereign and immutable, If God’s saving plan and covenants were whimsical plans based on human response then the world would be a frightening place indeed because we are so wretched our response would always nullify an agreement with God. This dispensationalist concept that Jesus’ teachings apply to another epoch and not to us today is so wrong it is just unbelievable to me that anyone could believe it. It is hard to express my tone while writing, but I just want to say I am not writing in righteous indignation, but in a sincere hope that the truth could be believed, that Jesus loves all men and always did. He wants us all to be drawn to him and the plan was always that he would be sacrificed to atone for ALL men’s sins. All his disciples (except Judas perhaps) understood this, whether they followed it perfectly or not. Paul had to reprove Peter for discriminating against Gentiles, not because Peter believed differently, but because he had fallen into sin. Just like us the apostles were sinners and Peter had tripped and thus Paul was helping him up and reminding him what Jesus had always said, that all people are precious to him.

My comment for correction:

The Lord Jesus came to earth to “save His people (that is Israel) from their sins” Matthew 1:21. He was “the a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:” Romans 15:8.  The “us and we” in Isaiah’s prophecy chapter 53 are Jews, for the entire book is, Isa.1:1 “concerning Judah and Jerusalem.” God’s plan according to prophecy is to save nations through Israel, for “Salvation is of the Jews” John 4:22. God’s present plan is not subject to prophecy as He is saving believers through Christ without the agency of Israel. God’s covenant with Israel made them His agent here on earth; they were to be the light unto the Gentiles. Because of their refusal to believe the Gospel of the Kingdom, the rejection of the risen King, who would never need to be replaced, Israel’s covenant relationship with God is suspended.  The dispensational aspect of that era is another revelation by the Apostle Paul from Romans chapter nine to eleven and clearly stated with these words in Romans 11:11 “but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” Prophecy teaches the salvation of Gentiles through the exaltation of Israel.

Please read Zachariah 8:23, Luke 1:32,33, Jeremiah 23:5-8, and Ezekiel 36:22-28 “And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25   Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

Jeremiah 31:31 “ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 ¶  Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36  If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Luke wrote on August 24, 2009 at 11:41pm

This is exactly what Paul was telling Timothy in First Timothy 1:4 to do, for the word is “economy” οικονομιαν  translated stewardship or godly edifying is not the best translation. Paul was telling Timothy to teach God’s dispensation. It is the same word as in the following verses.

 

Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

 

(Gr. oikonomia, "management," "economy").

1. The method or scheme according to which God carries out his purposes towards men is called a dispensation.   

In replay to Garrett Poulos May 3, 2009

If you dismiss dispensational truth, the whole Bible becomes a book of contradictions in which the unbeliever just delights, and the nominal Christian has no answer. God’s plan to save Gentiles through Israel is revealed as prophecy and will yet be fulfilled, for “salvation is of the Jews” as the Lord had said in John 4:22. That age (dispensation) has not yet arrived but you can read of it here in Isaiah chapter 61 or Genesis 18:18 or when Jeremiah 23:5, 6 is literally in operation, when the “blindness” of Israel is taken away, which Hosea says, will not happen nationally until they “acknowledge their offence” and as the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 23:39 “ye shall not see me until…”
This is where the confusion reigns. Presently, God is doing something completely new, which was not prophesied in the Old Testament, and of which the Twelve Apostles were only informed years after Paul’s conversion. God is saving Jews and Gentiles without Israel (the so called Great Commission). And He is saving them to a heavenly position to “provoke Israel to jealousy” through the preaching of the Gospel of the Grace of God by the “preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” Romans 16:25. By the way John 3:16 was true before the cross so how can that be the same as the preaching of the cross, and the same goes for John 3:36 which is a truth for all ages. But let me ask you this, why should we join together which God has kept apart? We are to “Study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman not needing to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” Note, rightly dividing and not assuming that all is the same. I have recently posted an article on my website titled “Three Times My Gospel” which may help you understand what we are trying to correct.

 

 

Stuart Luke, let me see if I understand you well. You are saying that the Old Testament prophecies have nothing to do with the church? Why on Earth do the apostles point to the fulfilment of scripture in the church? Please don't pit God's word against itself by claiming that any non-dispensational view of God's plan make the Bible contradictory. The verse in 2 Timothy is a very large case of you reading in an entire theology into two words. Paul never says or teaches the things that you are putting forward, so to say that "rightly dividing" means what you think it means ... is dangerous, to say the least. Also, I wouldn't be relying on those two words when every modern translation renders the words differently, usually as "handles", which much better fits the context of Paul's advice to Timothy. To say he was telling Timothy to hold to a dispensational view of scripture is ... completely absurd. We are dealing with the word of God here.

 

Old Testament prophecies are completely silent regards the Church of this dispensation because it was a mystery which was not revealed to the sons of men in the past. The Church which is His Body is not the Church of the Wilderness or even the Church prophesied in Matthew chapter 16. This is just another blunder to assume that the word church is always referring to the same group of people. In Acts 19:32 that wild mob in Ephesus is called the church, “the assembly was confused” we read and the word assembly is ecclesia – church. Let us wake up, we call it “the Testament” but we read it as if it was an Agatha Christy.

 

 

You say that God is "doing something new, which was not prophesied in the Old Testament". How can you say this when in Romans 15, Paul quotes Isaiah saying :

 

"The Root of Jesse will spring up,

one who will arise to rule over the nations;

the Gentiles will hope in him",

 

and then notes that this is a fulfilment? He relates a prophecy 700BC and applies it to the Gentiles in the church. The same is true of Hebrews, and 1 Peter. Time and time again. It was always God's plan to save Gentiles and Jews through Jesus. Any other distortion of this cuts at the heart of the grace of God. God knows His elect, and His plans in Jesus were never frustrated. Jews and Gentiles were saved back in the day, and they continue to be saved by now. It has always been by grace, God's choosing.

 

As I said a long time ago in this thread, Peter's case in Acts 15 completely demolishes your standpoint. He says "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Now I'm sure you've read this before, but please take the time to mull it over. "Just as they are". Peter and Gentiles are part of the one group, the church of the living God.

 

Amos 3: "Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets." Amen Amos, Amen.

 

To Stuart Luke.

My comment for correction.

A non-dispensational view does make the Bible contradictory.

From hundreds of examples here are just four.

Under the dispensation of law Jews were forbidden to eat amongst many other things pork. Under the dispensation of Grace the Apostle Paul tells us that nothing is to be refused 1Tim.4:4.

Under law forgiveness is conditional, under grace it is unconditional. Matthew 6:12 and Ephesians 4:32.

Under law, and with the kingdom of heaven at hand, the Lord Jesus said “I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on” but  in this age of grace 1 Timothy 5:8 we are to make provision for the future. Can you not see the difference?

 

At Pentecost with the Kingdom about to be established, the believers had all things in common, but now in this age, the Apostle to the Gentiles instructs us that if we do not provide for our family we have denied the faith. Both statements are true but not at the same time. Under law every male Jew had to present himself three times a year at the temple in Jerusalem. (Passover, Pentecost and Atonement) In this dispensation of Grace, God has taken the temple away to show everyone that it is impossible to keep the law. If there are no dispensations you are to obey that command. Abraham lived 430 years before the law was given. Did God not deal with him on a different basis than with Israel under the law? Is there not a change again when we read in Romans 3:19 “Now we know that whatever things the law says it says to them that are under the law? “But now” in verse 21  he goes on to say There is no longer any difference between  Jew and Gentile and reveals the righteousness of God.

 

I maintain that the 12 Apostles did not know anything about the church (out calling) which is His Body, until they learned it from the Apostle Paul years after Pentecost. The test is quite simple. Take Paul’s epistles out of the Bible and there is not one word of a united body of Jews and Gentiles as the Body of Christ. In Romans chapter 15 the Old Testament reference is in regards to the promises God had made to the nation of Israel (fathers) as he declared in verse 8 that Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10  And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (mercy is not grace and Israel is not the body of Christ)

 

These promises are yet to be fulfilled; for the Gentiles, never have in the past neither do they now rejoice with His People Israel, in fact the entire world at present is against Israel and the “root of Jesse” is not ruling over the nations. Furthermore, Paul in the same chapter has told us that he is, in contrast of the minister of the circumcision, the minister to the Gentiles, that is the un-circumcision.

 

I repeat, take Paul’s Epistles out of the Bible and you would not know about the dispensation of grace, the doctrine of reconciliation, the rapture, the secret revealed in 1Corinthians 15 that we shall not all sleep, of Jews and Gentiles in One Body, of One Baptism by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, of being seated with Christ in heaven.

Peter’s case in Acts 15 is correctly translated in the KJV.  “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” Peter, the inspired Apostle, filled with the Holy Spirit, did know the difference that is why he said “shall be saved” in contrast to the believer in the dispensation of grace who “has been saved.” Peter said, writing to Jews who will live after the body of Christ is removed from this earth “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” Paul writing to believers in the dispensation of grace says “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” 

9 July 2010

 

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Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 10:7.

Gospel of the Circumcision

Galatians 2:7

Gospel of the Un-circumcision

Galatians 2:7.

Gospel of Reconciliation

Corinthians 5:14-21.

Gospel of the Grace of God

Acts 20:24.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

 

1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

The Blessed Hope of every Christian

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13

13   But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.